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Stalls
I am going to spout off some of my theory and experience with stalls to get the discussion started. Also want to hear other people's stories with them.
Spectrum of stalls:
vertical down (vD), horizontal underhand (hU), vertical up (vU), and horizontal overhand (hO) from vertical regular spin,
vD, hU, vU, and hO from vertical anti spin,
horizontal from horizontal spin,
plane bending stalls.
These can be done in any combination of plane, timing, and direction. Next I want to write out all the possible combinations with both poi. That is a larger list though and will take some more time for us to do.
Once the head reaches the quadrant point just before the one you want to stall in, move your hand to that point and follow the straight line path of the poi. In geometric terms, a stall is a tangent line of the circle so doing isolations and extensions in the beat preceding the stall will help make them cleaner. After the stall reaches it's extent, tug back to go the opposite direction. Stalls can also be used to change between planes.
With plane bending stalls, as the poi moves towards the weightless moment in the middle of a stall, the handle can be moved to a new plane and back. It is a momentary point isolation. Since the center of rotation becomes a single point at the head it allows us to move the handle end of our poi to any new position within the sphere, within the duration of the stall.
Spectrum of stalls:
vertical down (vD), horizontal underhand (hU), vertical up (vU), and horizontal overhand (hO) from vertical regular spin,
vD, hU, vU, and hO from vertical anti spin,
horizontal from horizontal spin,
plane bending stalls.
These can be done in any combination of plane, timing, and direction. Next I want to write out all the possible combinations with both poi. That is a larger list though and will take some more time for us to do.
Once the head reaches the quadrant point just before the one you want to stall in, move your hand to that point and follow the straight line path of the poi. In geometric terms, a stall is a tangent line of the circle so doing isolations and extensions in the beat preceding the stall will help make them cleaner. After the stall reaches it's extent, tug back to go the opposite direction. Stalls can also be used to change between planes.
With plane bending stalls, as the poi moves towards the weightless moment in the middle of a stall, the handle can be moved to a new plane and back. It is a momentary point isolation. Since the center of rotation becomes a single point at the head it allows us to move the handle end of our poi to any new position within the sphere, within the duration of the stall.
Tags: change, direction, pendulums, plane, poi, stalls, tangent
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Xander on -
Something which I have noticed while practicing stalls is that in order for the stalls to achieve a completely neutral state, and therefore be easy to reverse the direction of, the planes on which they are spinning have to be completely flat. Any deviation from the plane causes movement in more than one direction, meaning that the poi head will have momentum at an angle to the plane.
This will usually manifest itself as the poi coming back from the stall out of alignment, and to put the poi back on track you'll have to force the planes, which is generally a bad thing, and never looks natural.
Out of interest, what grip, or which type of handle do you find the easiest to stall from? Personally I'm a fan of the crappy nylon double loops, as I can feel exactly when the poi are pulling in the right direction to start isolating the end of the stall, and also can feel how neat the planes are, as the two loops pull different amounts on each finger.
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Permalink Reply by DyamiTK on -
Xander said:the planes on which they are spinning have to be completely flat. Any deviation from the plane causes movement in more than one direction, meaning that the poi head will have momentum at an angle to the plane.
Yes an no. I agree that the most momentum can be obtained from big two dimensional circles with long tangent lines. However the point of what i call plane bending stalls is that we are going beyond this boundary. I don't remember where they came from and I am sorry that I don't have a video example but my friend Aeons and I do them and they look (and feel) beautiful. It is a slightly different effect from the strictly two dimensional stalls or even the plane changing stalls (different from plane bending). The first one Aeons taught me and still my favorite example is to start by spinning underhand (poi coming up your mid line) butterfly in the front wall plane. Go as if you were going to do an up stall but as the poi begin to move towards the stall point, bring your handles up with the heads so that the poi end up curving away from you and by the middle of the stall your entire poi are horizontal. Then pull the stall back down in the other direction just as you would an up stall by bringing everything back down your mid line into the flat wall plane.
Xander said:Out of interest, what grip, or which type of handle do you find the easiest to stall from? Personally I'm a fan of the crappy nylon double loops, as I can feel exactly when the poi are pulling in the right direction to start isolating the end of the stall, and also can feel how neat the planes are, as the two loops pull different amounts on each finger.
I use somewhat unique handles. I don't like finger loops because I like doing contact poi and the finger loops, especially the double ones are difficult to get out of quickly. My simple design is to make sock poi with rice baloons in the style that Nick Woolsey shows (youtube.com/watch?v=jwMOtchpP8A). Then I add a smaller balloon with sand as the handle. To attach the handle balloon I place it a ways down the sock, twist above the balloon, fold the excess down over the balloon, put a rubber band beneath the balloon, then fold the last of the excess up over the balloon again. Kind of like this (these don't have the final flap folded up): farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2808492610_da597b058c_b.jpg
Then my more advanced design is to take one inch tubular rock climbing webbing, put it through a swivel, fill the bottom half with sand and leave the top as a wrist loop handle and sew it all down.
I'll try to make videos of all this stuff at some point.
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Permalink Reply by DyamiTK on
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I just had an epiphany about stalls. I was thinking about the relationship of changing direction with stalls, continuing on in the same direction, and changing planes, and it occurred to me that a stall is a three dimensional shape.
Think about a simple two dimensional up stall. The path that it makes is kind of like a "J". Take that "J curve" of the stall path and spin it around the Y-axis (vertical axis) to make a three dimensional sort of parabolic cone like shape. This three dimensional parabolic cone with j-curve sides models all the possible paths of a stall. That is why stalls can be used to change planes and direction.
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Permalink Reply by Xander on
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@ Post 1 - I'd definitely like to see a video of the plane-bending stalls - I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but it seems like a sort of extension on 3D spinning theory, but instead of going to a different plane, you pull them back into the one they started on.
Interesting theory about stalls. Makes it really easy to visualise the various different ways a stall can be taken, given it's neutral state at the apex. I'll have to have a play with it when I get home. It's given me some interesting ideas for coming out of double stalls.
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Permalink Reply by DyamiTK on
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Updated theory on stalls. There is only one stall. The differentiation is where you go into it from.
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Permalink Reply by Xander on
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Kind of, but wouldn't you agree it's the same for any move which can be repeated in a different plane, as advanced theory leads us to believe?
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Permalink Reply by Danny Thomas on -
There is one stall - but there are lots of ways to vary it.
Or, there are lots of different stalls.
Floats and pendulums are different versions of the same stall.
To me, all stalls are the same (in a way), that is why they are all called stalls. We can still differentiate within that. A vertical or a horizontal stall, while similar, feel very different. Thinking of them as the same, however, does help to visualise the pattern that will be drawn in the air, and how to link together different stalls. So, pros and cons, I guess.
That's just my personal opinion on that.
I like your J curve idea, it helps to visualise what's going on. And opens up thoughts on not just splitting that curve into two planes, but 4... or 3...
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Permalink Reply by Mr Joe on -
As far as classification of stalls go I split them up roughly 4 kinds. Down, out, up and over. Representing the four points on a compass pretty much.
Down stalls are fairly self-explanatory, move your hand over the poi head and it'll stall. They're really the neutral stall, you can leave them there indefinitely without gravity spoiling your fun.
Outwards ones seems to be the easiest to learn, extend the poi to isolate it as it swings upwards in vertical spinning, or extend to isolate at any point in horizontal spinning.
Upstalls are obviously pointing straight at the sky, only possible (I believe) from vertical spinning, and obviously won't stay stalled long (damn you, gravity!).
Overstalls are the logical extension of upstalls, essentially achieved by moving the hand out to side of an upstall, so it looks like the poi has gone most of the way round a loop-the-loop before coming back. Go any further and it becomes a downstall again.
I'll let people more comfortable with floats talk about them, but that's my stall vocabulary.
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Permalink Reply by Xander on
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Trying to get the drop on overstalls at the moment, and learning this was a crucial turning point... It only looks like the poi has been stalled there, when actually it's just your hand isolating the poi head on an upstall.
Mr Joe said:Overstalls are the logical extension of upstalls, essentially achieved by moving the hand out to side of an upstall, so it looks like the poi has gone most of the way round a loop-the-loop before coming back. Go any further and it becomes a downstall again.
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Permalink Reply by Kinshira Performance Troupe on -
Not sure what the move is 'techinally' called. Its the easy form of a spiral wrap, I think the move is handcuffs, but you tilt the axis so it stalls on a vertical.
I really enjoy behind the back weaves, to front, extensions and everything in between.
If you do too, try doing a handcuff stall when your in your backwards behind the back weave (or front I suppose). You have to really contort your body, but its does work, you can then stall this handcuff and rawk it straight into a forwards behind the back weave or whatever else. You kind of look like gumbi when you do it :)
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Permalink Reply by DyamiTK on
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Xander said:Kind of, but wouldn't you agree it's the same for any move which can be repeated in a different plane, as advanced theory leads us to believe?
Yes
Danny Thomas said:Floats and pendulums are different versions of the same stall.To me, all stalls are the same (in a way), that is why they are all called stalls. We can still differentiate within that. A vertical or a horizontal stall, while similar, feel very different. Thinking of them as the same, however, does help to visualise the pattern that will be drawn in the air, and how to link together different stalls. So, pros and cons, I guess.
In that case, let me re-word my statement. All stalls make the same shape, but they feel different depending on where they are done because of their interaction with gravity. A pendulum can accomplish many of the same practical purposes as a stall and because of that there is a fine line between them but I personally do not consider them to be the same thing. Floats can be done from either a pendulum or a stall and exited with either.
Mr Joe said:Upstalls are obviously pointing straight at the sky, only possible (I believe) from vertical spinning...Overstalls are the logical extension of upstalls, essentially achieved by moving the hand out to side of an upstall
Off the top of my head, vertical stalls can be done from horizontal spinning using plane bending stalls. A stall can move between any two intersecting planes. I find that stalling from antispin makes going from horizontal to vertical easier. Check out the diagram on the planes discussion: thefiregarden.com/forum/topics/plane-theory
The way you describe over stalls is actually what I consider to be plane bending stalls. It is using the point isolation of, in this case an up stall, to move your handle where ever you want for a beat. That will definitely give the illusion of an over stall.
The way I do horizontal stalls, the whole poi actually do move across a horizontal line with the handle following the head. Where ever you are doing a stall, set the poi off in a line and follow the head with your hand. Isolations are good too but I find that doing a slight extension before going into a stall will give it more momentum and make it last longer.
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Permalink Reply by DyamiTK on
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Danny Thomas said:Floats and pendulums are different versions of the same stall.
I agree with you now about pendulums being stalls. I still don't think floats are though. In class today we learned about pendulums and realized that pendulums actually do make the same J-curve shape as the other stalls, however the curve is much shorter.
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